Values of a community?

Guten morgen!

Ich werde jetzt ein Thema ansprechen, welches mich seit einigen Tagen ziemlich viele Nerven gekostet hat. 2 unserer Gildenmitglieder laufen anstelle mit ihrer Gilde mit der Alb-Gruppe "Team Ingo". Das stösst mir ziemlich sauer auf und nach Rücksprache mit einigen members habe ich gestern die Entscheidung getroffen solch ein Verhalten nicht mehr zu akzeptieren. Leider handelt es sich dabei um member die schon lange zu uns gehören und die ich eigentlich immer als ein Teil dieser Gemeinschaft gesehen habe und deshalb nehme ich mir auch jetzt die Zeit um es so gut wie möglich zu erklären.

Warum ist es ein Problem?

Es gibt viele Gründe die aus meiner Sicht der Dinge gegen ein solches Verhalten sprechen. Fangen wir damit an, dass einige Member von "Team Ingo" Verhalten an den Tag legen die absolut garnichts mit dem Verhalten zu tun haben das ich von meinen Eltern und im Laufe meines Lebens über den Umgang mit anderen Menschen gelernt habe. Sie sabotieren events für zahlreiche Spieler auf Albion, geben crossrealm infos bzgl. relics weiter, sind zum Teil arrogant bis zum geht nicht mehr und flamen regelmäßig öffentliche chats.
Jetzt denken sich einige vielleicht, warum interessiert mich das überhaupt, lass Team Ingo doch einfach Team Ingo sein. Und das ist richtig, es geht hier nur nicht um Team Ingo sondern um Rare. Leider ist es nun so weit, dass member unserer Gilde eben mit diesen Leuten RvR machen und nicht nur das, sie ziehen sie uns vor. Es ist ja nicht so als würden sie dort mitlaufen weil unsere gruppe voll ist oder weil sie unbedingt eine Klasse spielen wollen die nicht in unser Setup passt. Nein, sie haben andere Gründe.

Das führt zu einigen Problemen. Ich werde täglich angesendet und von Leuten genervt die denken Rare wäre zerstritten (und das nicht nur von ausserhalb der Gilde). In anderen Gilden gibt es so ein Verhalten nicht, fragt mal jemanden von Requiem oder Team Ingo oder MB ob da jemand auch nur auf die Idee kommen würde nicht mit der Gilde zu roamen wenn es sich IM SELBEN REICH anbietet. Es mag Gründe geben weshalb ihr Team Ingo uns derzeit vorzieht, allerdings erwarte ich bevor einfach gehandelt wird das wenigstens versucht wird die Probleme zu lösen die dazu führen. Ich habe nicht 3 Jahre meines Lebens in den Ruf dieser Gilde investiert und btw auch in die Leute die uns jetzt den Rücken kehren (denkt mal drüber nach wo ihr bzgl DAoC ohne Rare wäret) und seh dann einfach dabei zu wie Rare member lieber mit assozialen roamen als mit der eigenen Gilde (das ist auf den Punkt gebracht der Eindruck der nach aussen hin entsteht). Während wir im APK stehen und Sorc+Merc suchen joint ihr Team Ingo. Wir sind gezwungen randoms einzuladen und 2 unserer Besten stärken anstelle der eigenen Gilde eine andere Alb gruppe, und das in einer Zeit in der Albion so schon überbevölkert ist. NO WAY, das hört heute auf.

Chris und Moe ich appeliere hiermit das letztemal an euren Verstand und geb euch die Gelegenheit dieses Verhalten von nun an zu beenden. Solltet ihr euch in eurer Freiheit beraubt sehen und kein Verständnis für den dargelegten Standpunkt haben befinden wir uns in einem Konflikt der nur so zu lösen ist, dass ihr bis auf weiteres die Gilde verlassen müsst. Solang ihr mit eurem Verhalten ein schlechtes Bild auf die Gilde werft geht es nicht anders. Überlegt es euch gut.

Natürlich werde ich auch nach Ursachen für euer Verhalten innerhalb der Gilde suchen und wenn euch wirklich etwas daran liegt könnt ihr mich gerne dabei unterstützen.

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Good morning!

Im going to adress a topic which cause me a lot of nerves during the last days. 2 of your guildmembers prefer to run with the albion-guild team ingo instead of their own guild. This irritates me alot and after talking to some members i made the decision not to tollerate such behaviour anymore. Sadly it is about 2 of our longterm members that i always looked at as a part of our community and that is why i will now take the time and try to explain my point of view as good as i can.

Why is it a problem?

There is alot of reasons from my point of view. Lets start with the players of Team Ingo that have a social behaviour that has nothing to do about what i have learned from my parents and during my life. They sabotage events for masses of players in Albion, hand out crossrealm information on relicraids, are partially arrogant as hell and tend to flame in broad chats.
Now some people might think, why do i even care, let team ingo be team ingo and move on. This would be true, if it was about Team Ingo here, but its not, its about Rare. Sadly we've come that far that members of our own guild do RvR with those guys and not only that, they favor them for their own guild. Its not like they would run with them because our group is full or because they wanna play a class they cant play in our setup, no they have other reasons.

This leads to some problems. I daily get messaged and annoyed by people that think Rare would have internal fights (not only from outside of the guild). In other guilds there is no such behaviour, just ask Requiem, Team Ingo or MB if there would someone even think about not joining the guild when they could IN THE SAME REALM. There might be reasons why u favor Team Ingo atm but i expect you before acting to trying to solve the problems that lead to it. I dont invested 3 years of my life in the reputation of this guild and also in the people that now turn our back to us (think about where u would be in DAoC without Rare) and then just watch when rare members prefer to roam with assholes instead of their own guild (this is the impression thats arising for outsiders). While we wait in APK looking for sorc and merc you join team ingo without a word. We are forced to pick up randoms and 2 of our best strenghten another alb group instead of their guild, and this during a time where alb is already overpopulated. NO WAY, this will end today.

Chris and Moe i appeal to your common sense and give you the opportunity to stop this behaviour from now on. If you find yourself robbed of freedom and dont have any understanding for the stated points, we are in a conflict that can only be solved by a disband from the guild. Aslong as you leave a bad picture for the guild with your behaviour, there is no other way. Think about it.

Ofc i will also look for the reasons for your behaviour inside the guild and you are free to help me to solve internal problems (maybe with other members) if you so want.

Well,first of all,it is about guild thing.And it is about eye for an eye.I am sure that you want respect and you have reasons.But,there is always one ''But'' after the sentence.I think we showed mercy to you,but you dont show mercy to the guild.

We have played too many times together as a guild,as a friend.May be i am not close with you both then other ppls from guild but i should feel the same way if we talk about any other guy from guild.

Anyway i could understand if you go to other group when there is FG rare group ready.But,i cant understand you let the 6 guild mates wait and roam with other guild.Moe was doing that before too with simon's group but we were enough to build fg without him too.I just wanna explain that the situtations are different.

Nevermind,i hope you find the way clearly.

Big regards;
Hildorien

As you are the first to respond i also have to tell you a couple of things Orhan.

Im tired of that cat and mouse play and as people seem not to be able to solve things like adults i will do my job as gm and try to be a "translator".

It is a fact that you are causing unease in the guildgroups at a lot of times. Its not only Moe and Chris that are saying that, its also myself and some others that get annoyed by your behaviour in times. Noone is perfect and i also get mad with others sometimes but you, again, give me a feeling that hopefully hes not online today and we can have a good time without i have to care about stupid stuff that you sometimes do.

First of all, your continous rages about adders and zergers and your eye for an eye attitude. If you remember the last time you left Rare this was one of the reasons. Eye for an eye is not the way we play and never was, finally adjust to that!

Then you tend to communicate about nothing during the fight but be the first to complain what went wrong and that we have to change setup and that this and that doesnt work. Its not only me that thinks that most you are saying is nothing more than hot air sometimes. You have alot to learn in DAoC and more than most others in our guild, your perspective is very limited.

Another thing is your constant inattention. It didnt happen once that you ask me the same question on 1 day about 5 times in a row. Your still asking when do we form even tho it is and always has been 20:00. You dont say when ur afk, you let people wait, you as a stickleader is worse than someone that is not in TS as this person usually atleast reads the chat (lol).

Believe me Chris and Moe have other reasons that they dont wanna run with us atm and those are reasons i can not and will not accept, but in this point i have to say, yes you can be difficult to play with sometimes.
There is also things i totally like about you.. that is for example your loyality.. whenever someone says bad things about Rare or some person you call your friend you get upset and defend it. Its the good side of the mentality like yours. Your also a very honest person i think. But atm i and some others feel like it wouldnt hurt not to run with Orhan sometimes so maybe you should do something about your behaviour otherwise it might result in the same way it already has once, and then this would be the very last time for sure.

That said, im not defending Moe and Chris behaviour with this argument. But now that we are on it i think we can clear it all at once.

Well.I got it and i will do somethings about that situtations which ones you told me right now.

But i dont agree about one thing,i wasnt leave rare for any behaviour,it was just a problem between you and mertcan ; ) anyway i got what you wanna say and this past situtation is not important.

''Noone is perfect and i also get mad with others sometimes but you, again, give me a feeling that hopefully hes not online today and we can have a good time without i have to care about stupid stuff that you sometimes do.''

Msg has been taken.

Well, I am just too short a member of rare to say anything concerning on that topic. I wondered several times why we filled our emain grp with strangers and have 2 Player running in emain in a different Grp meanwhile.
Of course, not always everyone likes each other and gets around with each other... but I was wondering about that
You know yourself much better than I do after such a short period of time. I hope you can fix it :-/

Well, my 20mins of fame when I tried to adjust my keys and UI shouldn't been enough to judge any recent action in guild, but I think with the information I got I can make at least a neutral statement from my side.

The one thing is, that the game should be fun and when the internal behaviour and/or resulting atmosphere is not leading to this it 's hard to force yourself to spend your time in this uncomfortable atmosphere. On the one hand noone should be forced to play with people he is not feeling comfortable with and it 's not a point to say "you are in this guild, you have to play with us", but on the other hand when you are in a guild it should be possible to spot the things going wrong or the people who create this disharmony and clear this up.
The game is not always fair, the inc is not always there, the fun is not making alot of RPs, if it is you are definitely wrong with RvR. Nevertheless I got to know at least 3 members of this "Team Ingo" guild and if they really behave, like I got the impression by reading the short lines from Mark about it, then it is not just a matter of solidarity towards the guild but a matter of your honor to not go a way where you have to act against your ideals.

And the other point of mine is, that I learned one thing by actually playing League of Legends for some longer time now: It has no worth to rage about a game that is intended to be fun. I saw several streams of progamers from LoL and every of them who is still earning money by being in a successfuly team and streaming etc. was or now is at the point, where you don't rage anymore. That 's what I am aiming for and where I came close to in the last years. It 's not worth it. You can have fun even when you are not successful, just by shareing the time with others you can communicate with. If that 's not enough, do something else, but for gods sake, just don't let a game change your mood to the bad.
Success, skill and fun are unequal to rewards like gold/RP and never do things against your ideals.
People, who are disrespectful in a way of insulting behaviour against others or be it unfair, unpolite ingame behaviour are unworthy that you spend your time with them.

So as a result I just want to drag you to the conclusion:
- work on yourself and on your view about this and in general games, they are intended to be fun and nothing else
- speak about problems and try to solve them, it 's always maybe not always easy to talk about, but definitely easier and better for everyones health to solve 'em as fast as possible, since it 's definitely worth the time, since you will feel so much better and more free after it 's cleared up
- stand for your ideals, people belonging to this guild are in my opinion polite, honest and respectful so don't waste your time with people who are not and trolling others with disrespectful behaviour

Soo actually I wanted to answer yesterday already, but here it goes now. I already talked to Mark a bit about it and want to give my statement here.

Let me start of by telling you that this is something I really have to think about for some time. I'm kind off sad and dissapointed when I had to read this fucking thread. I already said Mark that - in general - I get his point and can understand it to a high extend. BUT are you fucking kidding me, blaming me for joining another group about 3 or 4 times in the last 3 months? really?
"Values of a community" .... wtf? I joined Rare ... and yes i profitted a lot from it, not only RvR wise but I also got to know a lot of really nice people. And guess why I'm still within this guild and didn't join some other guilds especially when Rare was absent for about a year. A year where I only saw Stefan, Knut and myself online from time to time. Right, It's because I love most of the people here. And now that I played with another group for a very few times I read this thread where I get threatened with the possibility of a guild kick? Alright, it's your decision and I've to live with it. And you can trust me that I won't let me force to do something like this ... especially not because this is a really minor problem.

This is a game, I play this game for fun in my freetime and I do whatever I feel like doing in this time! If you can't live with that .... alright then our ways have to part here and now. I don't want to do this, but still want to emphasize again that I actually ran with another grp for a very few times. And if I feel like doing this again, I will. Especially now ... that i'm pretty frustrated about getting blamed for a fucking unneccessary reason.

So much for the little introduction. Let's get more into detail about the -WHY DID YOU DO THAT-!


Let me start with the most egoistic reason for it. I want to have fun. We all want to have fun ... and in the past there were evenings where my pleasure was pretty restricted by several reasons that I didn't communicate. And yes this is something that I should've done. So why is that?

a) after all those blames towards their direction I want to adress this points first. I like their group, most of the people there are nice and it's umcomplicated with them. Something that's pretty nice if you come home late and just want to use your last hours of the day efficiently.

Let's add that I did not join them when we were actually building (yes I know we form around 8pm cet normally), but most likely it was like smokey asking me if I would join them for the evening as their sorc won't be there. And I simply said yes ... implying that most of the times we've enough ppl for more than a fg anyway online.

b) Some member problems, which is really the biggest factor. I don't want to blame people publicly here so I skip the name, but it is like it is. I guess you already know about who I'm talking about and you can feel free to talk with me about it as well. Mark just showed me that it's kinda stupid to keep my mouth shut. And regarding the opening post I will be as honest as I can now even if it sounds harsh. Allright? If you don't wanna read it skip it.

I never wanted you in <Rare> and did what I can to prevent it. I was not alone doing so, but well it didn't help. So I tried to come along with you, which actually works pretty good as long as we're not grouped. But if we're grouped I just feel that you don't want to learn how to play and on top of that blame others ... which I can't understand in no way. I somehow don't like your mentality ... and please get me right I don't hate you! I just feel like I can't get along with you that great and so I normally don't wanna join the grps than either. But I still do as you all know, not always, but most of the times !!!

And please don't feel too offended by this passage. We are all grown up people, we know how live works. This can also happen in real-life, not only in-game.

c) Combining both factors I knew that I would've for sure have a nice evening if I just say yes to smokey the few times he asked me to join them. I most likely would've had a nice evening with you as well, so don't get me wrong ... but sometimes and you can ask Chris as well about that topic ... it's kind off annoying. If there's the blame game, then there's stuff you have to say over and over again, and on top of that the factor from point b). And still I'm with the guild most (nearly all) of the times when I'm playing on alb in the evening. SO WHY THE FUCK DO I NEED TO WRITE A FUCKING LONG WALL OF TEXT HERE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF?????


SO DON'T GET IT WRONG. I LOVE THIS GUILD, I LOVE YOU, I ENJOY OUR EVENINGS, BUT SOMETIMES IT'S NICE TO DO SOMETHING OR RUN WITH SOMEONE ELSE. I DID THAT FOR A VERY FEW TIMES AND NOW GET BLAMED FOR IT IN A HARSH WAY AND I WON'T ACCEPT THAT!

tl;dr version: I will never ever voluntarily leave the guild. But I won't let me force to do something If I'd rather prefer doing other stuff, especially here in a game. If this is reason enough to throw me out, I will accept your judgement. I will accept it, with a tear in my eye, but still accept it!!!

Forum is buggy somehow. Was my post ofc.

Well,you finally became a MAN who says what he feels to someone it seems.Cause i prefer to see a man in front of me insteed of a woman who is speaking behind me.
And i see someones true faces.Well i am not the guy cry for that and feel sad.

Well, I am hardly online these days, so i do not know too much about what is going. Further more i am not a long-time-member, so my opinion wont count much, but i will write it nonetheless

One the one hand i can understand Mark's attitude. I cant really explain it, but i often get a feeling that moe would prefer playing with other ppl (ROTLA for example). If i was responsible for the guild, i would be annoyed about it. (I know, sorc-only-players like me are augmenting this btw).

On the other hand: It would just be ridicolous to kick (or just threaten to do so) one of the longest (and maybe best) raremembers for such an "small" reason. Especially facing the fact that moe never left rare, even while rare seemed dead.

I do not know much about Chris' view of this.

I do think that the "bukkake-grp" (ridiculous, its really a shame for all rvr'lers)-problem is a serious one and that it s important to talk it over. But I dont think that we should let it damage the guild, so we might try to calm down a bit

Not much substance in this post, but it still is my opinion